Testing Your Way To Success

Testing Your Way To Success

 

Have you ever wondered if you could increase the conversions on your website? Do you even know how the heck to track that, or what numbers you ACTUALLY need to look for? Well, let Tester Extrordinare AJ Davis, Founder of Experiment explain it to you on the Copy ID podcast with Julio.

This podcast is a great starting point for someone new to conversion rate optimization and who wants to learn the basics and the best starting point.



Transcript

Julio

AJ, welcome to the podcast. For those that don’t know you, who are you and what do you do?


AJ

So, you know, you go to websites and people spend all this time trying to get people to get there. Yes. Like they’re spending money on ads. They’re spending money on SEO. They’re posting on social media. They’re doing all this work. And then crickets, right? Yeah, I help them fix that. Good. Now I help them figure out what’s going on. Where are those people getting there? And how do we get them to convert or to take the action that this site is set up to do?


Julio

So, I guess the first question that comes to mind is how exactly do you do that?


AJ

Great question! We do it through a technique called conversion Rate Optimization (CRO). So, this is a set of tools and processes that really get you to figure out what’s happening today, why it’s happening, and what the opportunity is. So, what we look at is your site analytics. Things like where are people going after the landing page? What’s really happening on the site? We also talk to customers and understand where they are getting stuck, what’s confusing, or what’s really appealing about your product or service? And then we take all that and put it together.

We then identify ideas for improving the experience so that people ultimately understand what’s going on what the opportunity is and connect with the message.


Julio

And you do that via AB testing, right?


AJ

We do AB testing in the last stage. So, of those three stages:

We’ll generate ideas based on what’s happening today. Then we’ll figure out what the best ideas are. So, it’s great to come up with a set of ideas, but it’s more important to be looking at the right ones, and then prioritize those ideas. Then we use a\AB testing to ultimately validate whether or not the thing works. So, we’ll take the current experience, and we’ll test it against the idea or the change in the hypothesis. Then we’ll measure the difference between behavior and those two experiences. We do all this so that we can see whether or not a change had any impact


Julio

You do that through like some sort of a statistical significance. Is that right?


AJ

Yeah, there’s actually a bunch of great tools out there already that allow you to do front end testing, where you’re looking and just making small changes to the website. Then they’ll measure how many sessions are coming in, and then how many people are taking the actions that you want them to take.

By using a tool like this, you can split a test and see what results you get. For example, let’s say your site gets 1000 visitors a month and you want to change your main headline. The tool will show no change to 500 of those visitors and show the new headline to the other 500.

So if this headline was above a button on your page and your goal was to get people to click on that, you could say 10 people clicked in it clicks the button in the first case, and 20 people clicked it in a second one, hey, we’ve got twice the number of people converting based on this change.


Julio

And then from there, you would pick the best option. And then I’m assuming because there is no such thing as perfect, right? You would try something slightly different, maybe like a slightly different, I don’t know, either copy wise, or maybe even the hue of a color to see if that one gets 22 clicks versus the other one that gets 20 is that the idea to kind of constantly improving?


AJ

iteration is the name of the game. So, you know, in the first part of the exercise of conversion rate optimization, you’re really understanding what are some of the opportunities so maybe you identify people aren’t really sure what your website’s about. So if you know people aren’t really quite sure it takes them some time to figure out what your website is about. It might be that the coffee can Help them for a bit and might be that you can move some icons to give them a visual representation of it. Yeah. But you want to make sure that you’re not just guessing things, you want to focus on solving a real problem.


Julio

And I think that’s important for many, obviously, for general websites. But also, what that made me realize was thinking about like Facebook ads, and like our Google ads and things like that, and how important it is to test everything from the creative to the headline, and just like, once you so I guess one of my questions is, when do you know to move on? Is there a certain threshold that like, this is good enough? Let’s move on to the next page. And then we’ll come back, you know, when six months from now, whenever we’re done with every step being good enough to really optimize and refine it?


AJ

Hmm, good question. So, we tend to work with customers that have multiple steps in their customer journey on their website. Using an e-commerce website, for example, has a homepage, a collection page product page from Checkout, you can test each of those spots individually, you can actually test them at the same time as well.

So, you can change one thing on the homepage, change one thing in the cart and have those two tests running at the same time. So that you don’t have to say, Oh, the homepage is good enough, let’s move on. But instead, always be refining and always be looking for opportunities in those pages.

So, at the end of the day, customers’ expectations evolve with time, competitors do things differently over time. So, there’s not really the answer of good enough. But if you’ve stalled out of ideas, and if the tests are coming back as no difference or this is not helping conversion, then you’ve got to go back to that first step and say, okay, but is there still a problem here? Is there still an opportunity for us to communicate better?


Julio

Well, whenever you do those kinds of tests and you’re running multiples at the same time, how do you attribute the difference?


AJ

Yeah. I think what you’re getting at is, you know, how can we have confidence that this change elicited this outcome? Right? Yeah. Especially if you have multiple things changing at once, right. And there’s a couple of tradeoffs there. So, in the perfect world, we get every single human looking at this change. And this isn’t the only change, right, then we know for sure, half the population responded this way. half the population responded this way. Yeah. It’s not really good return on investment to do that. And so, you’re stepping back another way we could do one test on your site at a time and be really confident that that change, did all these other changes everywhere else along with your site?

But then you’re missing out on testing elsewhere. So, where we planted is if you have many tests running on the same page, there’s going to be interaction.

So, let’s take a product page. So, if you’ve got a product page where you’re, you’re changing the color of the button, you’re changing the text on the button, you’re changing the images on the page. And the only thing that you’re really seeing a difference, the only action that’s being influenced immediately is the add to cart. So, you wouldn’t be able to say which of those things lead to it unless you’re running a multivariate test, which is much more complicated. And we don’t need to get into today, right. But from the simplest perspective, if you ran three AB tests, and you’re not paying attention to where people are grouped, and how things go together, it’s going to get noisy.

But if you got something on the homepage, and then something on the product detail page, there’s going to be an action at the home on the homepage that’s indicating did this work or not sure the users going to do something on the homepage, right? So, you can measure that as the decision metric for the test.


Julio

Hmmm, so what would you say are minimum requirements to really do this? Because I think the very first time I heard terms like AB testing being presented to me, it sounded good in theory, until I realized that it sounds good in theory but is a little harder than one might think. So, do you need a certain amount of impressions or advertising before you can get statistically significant results?


AJ

I think what you’re getting at is this idea of like, how much traffic is it worth starting to think about testing on right, and it really comes down to the size of the change. So, if you have a tiny change at the bottom of your page, and you only have a handful of visitors a month, it’s not worth your time, you’re not going to get anything actionable out of it. So that’s one extreme.

Sure, if you have millions of impressions a month, any change you make on your website that has a hypothesis about how it can improve things can be measured all the way through the funnel. Hmm. And then the questions kind of in the middle right? So, if you’re around like 50,000 visitors a month, you can do solid ad testing in the manner that we usually do, right?

If you’re in a lower category than that per month, then you really only want to be testing really big changes. So, in that category, it’s like if you’re doing you could do price testing potentially at that size. Sure, you could do landing page testing at that size. Or maybe it’s a better use of your time to do a different qualitative method. For example, like talking to customers watching them go through the site, you may learn a whole bunch of things there that you won’t be able to learn through AB testing.


Julio

Have you ever used a heat map? Because that’s supposed to be extremely helpful but I can’t figure that out at all. I tried. We tried to put that on our site and I looked at it and it’s like, I just see a bunch of colored dots everywhere and I have no idea how it’s tracked where what is going on. To me it’s a maybe a little over my head.


AJ

Oh, heat maps. These are great. What a great example of something that everyone says they have but have no idea how to use it.


Julio

So, what do you say?


AJ

This is something we see all the time. In fact, when we get started with clients, we hear this too. Like, hey, do you have hot jar Crazy Egg or any of these tools? Yeah, we always get like, Yeah, but we don’t use it. Sure, yeah, somebody’s using it. But nobody really is.

There’s not a clear insight from the data. So the answer is like, what I thought it comes back to this principle that I love to live by, which is, it’s okay to collect data. But really what you want to do is define what you’re trying to learn before you collect it. Like, what’s the research question? When looking at the click tracking data you might ask, are people seeing my call to action? Like our when you run your click tracking heat map? Are you like seeing people scroll down your page?


Julio

I think that’s kind of where it’s hard because like, I think a lot of people also don’t know what is correct, like what they don’t, they don’t have a reference point. So, they just see like, okay, in the beginning, I have a bunch of red dots in the beginning. And then as I scroll down, the farther down my sales page, they become less. And so like, I don’t know, if my entire page needs to be like a giant red, you know, Doc, or, like, I know, it’s probably like in a perfect world or something. So, I don’t know, at what point Am I good? Or like, Is this just terrible from the get-go? And you know, because at that point, I’m looking at bounce rates and time spent on page and I have no idea how to plug all this in and actually get, you know, some sort of statistical significance.


AJ

Yeah, or even just an insight like, what does it mean, right? Yeah. Like, okay, cool. People are clicking Little bit here and a lot here. But I think what I would encourage you to do is when you look at your website, instead of saying what are people interested in, you could say, what do I want them to be interested in? Okay? So if you see in a heat map that there’s a cluster of clicks on a part of your page that you’re not really that’s not the call to action, that’s something main thing they need to do, then you might not have the call to action in the right place, or you might have something else on your site that’s distracting them.


Julio

So that actually brings up a really good point we use that example today when we were doing our live on Facebook. We were critiquing someone’s post for them and one of the things they wrote was mentioning a 50% discount code for a museum in their area, so by the time I was done reading the post, I was wanting to check out the museum. I wasn’t so much interested in their earrings anymore.

So, I kind of get what you’re saying in that regard, like, get people to what you want them to do, as opposed to just, you know, like, and giving them the ability to go anywhere and do anything, kind of like herding sheep and use that in a weird term.


AJ

And I think that the phrase clarity is kind of the thing that comes to mind for me, like, why do you have a website? Right, like, why does anyone have a website?


Julio

People have a website to become better known, with the end goal being obviously to make money. For brand awareness, to feel like they’re a little bit more prestigious than they actually are. They want people to take them seriously. Am I on the right track?


AJ

Yeah. And follow up question. Okay, so you just had a launch?


Julio

Yeah, a soft launch.


AJ

The landing page that your launch has, what’s the purpose of that page?


Julio

The main purpose is to get them to buy the little template pack thing that we gave them?


AJ

Yeah. So, at the end of the day, build a website to talk about what your business does, sure. So that people who need it can find it and buy it. Okay.


Julio

Yeah, that’s a more succinct way of saying it. I really beat around the bush on that one.


AJ

But it’s, you know, and so if you can simplify, anybody can do this. Right? If you as a business, you can simplify Why does my website exist? Yes, to create awareness to present my brand in a particular way. But why do we do all those things while we do that, so that our customers understand who we are, and so they can work with us or they can buy our product, right? And so, at the end of the day, if our website’s taking them away from that, yeah, it’s distracting them and telling them about the museum and your example, right?

Like, if it’s hooking them on something else, and taking them away and letting them remember something else, then you failed at your job, like your website has failed. Yeah. And your goal for your website should really be to tell people about what you do so that they understand what problem you solve so that they can convert if that’s what they need.


Julio

So actually, I think is a pretty decent segue into what I wanted you to kind of talk about and cover. So, AJ runs experimentzone.com, and she’s awesome at what she does. That’s why I asked AJ if she would be so kind as to check out the new sales page we have for the templates I was discussing for the handmade industry to create social posts and social posts that engage and try to sell.


AJ

Okay, so I’m going to ask you some questions here. So, we’re going to go through this conversion Rate Optimization process. So, you’ve got your website. What is the purpose of this page?


Julio

So, first and foremost, it’s copyidentity.com/handmade365 for those that want to check it out!

So, the goal for the page is to convert and get people to purchase the templates that we worked so hard to actually create for them. The idea is for the handmade industry, people need to post to their social media most of the time it takes a tremendous amount of time and thought these posts are specifically formulated from us as copywriters and our team to create engagement and nurture the audience into actually joining the content you produce, thus engaging and in turn as a secondary measure, make money from that because people who spend more time with you and make and conversations and all that stuff well Inevitably become fans of you. And those that become fans of you will buy your product versus someone else that they don’t know.


AJ

Perfect. So, can you scroll down the page and show me the one action? If everybody took it, you’d be delighted.


Julio

Well, I guess starting here, right, so yes, I need handmade social sales. Am I understanding this right? Like, I’m just I don’t know what really what I guess what I’m doing. So, I see there’s the call to action button. I guess that is what I’m asking them to do. But it’s also throughout the entire thing. Like this is the final call to action, and then a little fax page.


AJ

And so you just had a really great example of what I like to the analogy I like to use is when you’re trying to teach someone something or you’re giving a presentation first you say like, what you what is this going to be about and then you explain it, and then you repeat the takeaway? So, for your calls to action, you’re showing them multiple times. And just to clarify for those at home are these the same call to actions like if I click on any of these will they take me Same place.


Julio

Yes, they’re all going to take you to a checkout page.


AJ

Perfect. So that keeps you super focused as a visitor. So as soon as you’re ready to go, and you’re like, Okay, I’m convinced this is exactly what I need. I can take action, right?


Julio

So, okay, I get what you’re saying because I there was one person we were working with before that we had a very similar thing, not in terms of the content she was producing. But she was trying to host like a masterclass, and we were going through her website, but she had like seven different things that she wanted them to seven different CTAs on that one sales page. And I told her like you need to get rid of all of them and focus on one. So, do you think my advice was spot on? Or do you think like, I should have left it alone.


AJ

I think it depends on the context. So, in some cases, you may have one thing you want people to really do. Sure. And if that’s the case, you want to tell them, repeat it make it easy for them to take it from anywhere. But sometimes there’s going to be a call to action that’s like, Okay, this is identifying that you are not a fit for this product. But maybe there’s something else our website offers or something else our business offers that we can like switch you into that other funnel. It’s okay to have secondary calls to actions that take people away from this page. After all, some people just aren’t a good fit, right?


Julio

So, it’s not necessarily just like, check out this blog, but if it’s like, for example, there was a gentleman by the name of Taki Moore, he’s a coach that helps coach people right. And I’ve been watching some of his videos and things like that because I do some, we do some coaching as well.

One of the things he was talking about was on his site, he has his you know, the main image and then he has his like, freebie thing that’s also above the fold. In other words, you know, before you scroll or anything like that, and then right underneath it, he has a, like a, you know, who we’ve worked with or whatever. So that gives some basis of social Proof and then right underneath that he has three different sections. One that he calls like the I he named some colors, so I think it’s like green and then yellow then red. If I’m not mistaken, it’s like green is like green like a newbie, right?

So, that’s where the freebie offers and all that stuff is because people don’t know you then there’s the yellow offer, which is like the people that are interested in trade, and then they’re going to be the ones that want more detail. And then finally, the red are the red-hot people who are just ready to buy and that’s the people that you’re like, you know, do you want to just jump straight into the coaching program, click here. So in that circumstance, also, I’m going to assume his success because of Well, I don’t know because I guess I’m watching him.

In that circumstance, what you’re saying is that works for him having three separate calls to actions because there he’s, he’s being able to segment and funnel through his email list or whatever, based off of that and kind of can build from there.


AJ

Yeah, I mean maybe he’s identified three personas and given them each their own customer journey.

So, the website should speak to that niche audience but sometimes you’ll see that there’s going to be a different experience. If it’s your first time there versus a returning customer, then maybe that there’s a justification within the data set around how those two groups behave. And they behave different enough that we need to actually give them a different experience.

This can be all you can kind of a ‘slice-and-dice’ customer journey in all kinds of ways. It’s another description or another tool for being able to understand your funnel. But when I think about your customer journey on just the website, I think we can talk about it in the context of your site here too. You know, the question is, like, what happens to them that brings them to the website? And then what do they need to go through in order to understand and be ready to become a customer? So, you know, walk me through that. Tell me about how your customers find out about your website.


Julio

Well in this particular circumstance, and so it was a soft-sell or a soft launch, it was really just purely organic We had this concept and this idea. We worked on it for a few months. Then we put it out there to the ether via social media posts and stories on Instagram. We had 120 people come to the page in a day or two. Then from there, 71 people signed up. And then from there, I think it was around 40ish people attended the live and then hopefully the other 30 will end up seeing the replay and then we’ll see how at the end result is concerned as far as the end sales numbers. Did I answer your question?


AJ

Yeah, you did. And so, it’s like they’re coming across you in a social context. So, they may know a little bit about you, but really, this time page has to do some heavy lifting to identify like, What? What’s your pain point? And then what it is that you’re offering that’s going to help them fix it, Right?


Julio

Yeah, in this particular circumstance, since we’re not driving cold audience to this page people kind of generally know us because it was based mainly on followers. And then, of course, it was also because we were hosting a class over this, so people got to know us and, you know, see us for two days, essentially an hour each day, which again, again, I think really built that know, like trust factor. So, I think this would probably be a much higher overall conversion rate than if we had just directed via like a Facebook ad. A bunch of cold traffic to this particular page with no you know, no videos to teach them why they would want this or anything like that.


AJ

Yeah, I didn’t It brings up a good point. So that first step that we talked about where you’re generating ideas and conversion rate optimization, and really important thing to look at is that traffic source because it can have a huge impact on what are they coming from? What do they know about us? And like, what’s our intent? Are they really high intent like you’re describing? Like, they already know us and they’re ready to go and take action? Or is it just the kind of accidentally came across us in an ad, and have a lot more work to get through in order to have the intent and readiness to go? So generally, this will have a lower conversion rate. So, you know, that’s on the data side of things. Have you had a chance to get any feedback from visitors or from folks in the class about this web page?


Julio

Yeah, sort of. So, we, before we even, you know, did the class we gave it away to a few people, and with the idea of getting feedback. So, we, the people that we did give it away. Part of our feedback on our Google forums that we sent them was about the sales page. Did they feel like it spoke to their pain points to feel like it spoke to them directly as an individual, etc. Right. And so, I think we, we got positive feedback in that regard. And the only thing that we got negative feedback from was like one section on you can see my movements, right.


AJ

Yeah.


Julio

Okay. I think it might have been maybe this section or so it was one of these sections that have all these blots. And that they said that was kind of hard to read the, the background information. And so, I don’t I can’t remember exactly which one it was because we were you know, we’ve been doing all these other things. We’re getting ready for the hurricane that’s coming and all this other stuff, but it was one of these that they had some issue with being able to understand might have been this one, I can see like this little dot covering up the a and stuff like I can see how it can be kind of maybe without some sort of background. To really separate the image. I can see how maybe they have some issues, reading it.


AJ

Yeah, and you know, I would almost challenge you to reframe the like good feedback versus bad. It’s like they gave you an opportunity or a gift for something to look at Sure. Because it’s so easy for us to spend all this time. Like you think about the journey you’ve gone through in order to get this site up and ready to go. Right? Like you’ve had to understand what your offer is, you’ve got to make design and branding choices.

You had to create a social strategy, and you created all these pieces. And then you launched your website. And so, it’s not like you’ve looked at one or two times, I’m sure you’ve looked at it hundreds of times, right. So, you may, in fact, be too close to your site to be able to identify what needs to be improved on it.

So, I love that you asked for feedback. Like that’s such an important thing. And so often people miss the opportunity to get that feedback. I’m going to plug a tool I don’t have any stake in but it’s a tool that I love, and I love it for these first impressions. Okay, so this tool is called fivesecondtest.com and what you can do is you submit the website for this five-second in front of somebody, and then the participant will respond to whatever question you ask. So, a great place to ask questions like “what’s this website about? What action can I take on this website?

It’s great to be able to get that feedback from enough people so that you can start to identify opportunities for improving the page. So it’s a great place to run your site through before you launch something or put a bunch of traffic towards that. Yeah, it’s just that spot check. Like, is there something about this that isn’t conveying exactly what I want this page to convey?


Julio

Do you know if there’s any, and I guess, sites in that regard that do sort of that? Focus testing, you know, they’re like the focus groups and stuff that you can actually, you know, here’s 200 bucks or something, get five people to pretend people or something to actually look through your web page.


AJ

Yeah, there’s a bunch. Okay. I, I love and I love that you asked the question, it’s a great opportunity to even go beyond the five-second test. It used to be that you had to have a pretty good budget to be able to do a usability study, you would hire a UX researcher, and they would have to rent a lab, you would have to hire a recruiting company to find the right people, you’d have to schedule and there’s just like all these steps and process to then get everyone in the same room and get the feedback. Now, there are leaner tools available that allow for remote testing. So, you don’t have to be in the same room, which is apparently really important this year. And, second of all, it also lets you do it asynchronously or not at the same time, so I don’t have to even be on the call with them. I can just send them a script of questions.

So, going back to your site for a second, I would push what you guys did one step further. I would plug it into a tool, like trymyui.com, userinterviews.com, or usertesting.com is one of the first guys to the plate with this, but they’re more for enterprise solutions. So, they require a bigger commitment.

But trymyui.com is a great tool, you can sign up five people to go through the site, you can give them a set of tasks to go through. And then they’re not going to see the task all at once like they might with a survey. So they’ll say, you know, they’ll read one task, say I’m done with this task, and then the next one will be shown to them so that you can structure it in such a way to get the really broad feedback first, rather than what is this page about, you know, what are what’s confusing about this page?

Then you can get more and more specific as the session goes on. So, you can say what do you think? About this text over this, these poke with this polka dot background, is it hard to read, you know? So you start with the broad questions, you have them go through it as a regular target customer would or target visitor would, and then even ask them some of those follow-ups. So long answer to your question, but it’s something I’m really passionate about because it can give you so much value in so many insights before you launch your site.


Julio

Love that, because we initially hired a ads manager, maybe a year or so ago, and between paying the ad company and running the ads and all that stuff. Like I think we ended up spending about $25,000. And we made like, two sales, like it was like, it was atrocious.

Part of the problem was that we were constantly restarting ads because we were constantly having to retest things, and we didn’t actually get a chance to, we didn’t I didn’t know about these tools, and we were not made aware of these tools. So like, we couldn’t just spend 500 or 1000 or 5000 to get, a couple hundred people to tell us, Hey, your website is confusing or Hey, your webinar is confusing or whatever, you know, like, we just kind of trusted their opinion on things and we ended up wasting pretty much all of it right?

All that money and we basically wasted everything. The only thing we really learned was like, hey, at the end, we had a pretty good converting landing page. But then after, after the landing page and after the webinar, which still converted-ish but not great. Once people reach the checkout page, they there was like nothing like a bunch of people initiated the checkout, but like, no one basically no one pressed by, and we couldn’t figure out why. And then that turned into like two or three weeks of trying to test different you know, types of copy and things like that. And then by the time it was all said and done, I was like, Hey, we’re bleeding money. I’m just going to call it.

So my point is just like how important it is to test whatever you’re putting out there, whether it’s a physical product like earrings or t-shirts or whatever to test to make sure the market, test the market to make sure that your message is correct, the people you’re targeting is correct, you’re not confusing. Your pricing structure makes sense. Your testimonials are there, you know, like all these different things, speak to the people who are actually coming to your site.


AJ

Yeah, I think what you’re getting at is, like the essence of why we do conversion rate optimization, right? In our old ways, or in sales that’s face to face. You’re shaking hands, you’re talking, you’re testing out your message. And then you get to see their response and start adapting and figuring out how much information does my audience really need? How should I frame the question or the information? Do they need a visual? Like, should I have a chart next to me that shows what like the performance numbers or should I just like, give them the bottom line?

All these things translate directly to your website, and then it feels like it’s guesswork just like you were describing like you guys spent tons of money sending people here. But at the end of the day, all you know is that it didn’t work. Yeah. But you don’t know why. Yeah. And so, the power of conversion rate optimization as a process is to get to that why first.

So just like we were talking about the five-second test or a usability study, if you can start with those things, you’re just going to be leagues above everyone else, because so many other people jump right into, like, let’s get some traffic to it and see what happens.

Then you can start with really understanding, are we doing a good job as a baseline, and then identify ideas building off of what, you know, if you hear conflicting things in there, maybe someone person’s like, I have to see the visual of the post and someone else’s, like, I hate all the visuals, and then you’re kind of like, that’s a good test idea. That’s something that’s going to like, could sway what someone ultimately does, right? Because we’re seeing our same audience having different preferences.

So, we need to know the overall effect of that, versus something that’s like, every single person who looks at your site is like, what does it mean? To have to not write a social media post, right? Like, sure. If you don’t if that sentence doesn’t resonate with most of the people you talk to, you got to go back to the drawing board. Right?

So, on that note, let’s find a couple of test hypotheses here. Okay, now, it sounds like there’s more user research opportunity for you. And did you get a chance to do a heat map on this page?


Julio

No, we haven’t installed a heat map on this page yet.


AJ

Okay, so I’d definitely do that and then I’d set up a heatmap to see how far people scroll on this page. And where do 75% of people get? Where do 50% of people get? And if you’re seeing a cut-off, where 50% of people are only getting to that second call to action, you’ve got to focus all your attention at the top of the page, right? That’s where most people are getting the information before they’re leaving, or before they’re converting, right?

So that’s generally how I would approach using the click tracking is make sure they’re clicking on those buttons and make sure you know how hard on the page they’re going. Okay, but let’s, let’s take a look just even at this first impression here. So, let’s go in the kind of generating test ideas mode, assuming we had looked at data, we had talked to customers that would all inform what we would ultimately be discussing today.

One of the things we talked about already that I love is that your website has a call to actions. It has that introduction call to action that a bunch in the middle and then you’ve got one at the bottom of the page. Write, however, before you scroll, okay, then scroll back up. Yep. What action do I take on this page?


Julio

What do you mean? Are you suggesting that there’s not a call to action before they scroll?


AJ

That’s exactly it!

So, what I love is that you have it is animated, so draws your attention. So as soon as you start scrolling, our audience can see that right and, but even better, or an idea that you might consider is having a call to action is visible so that when I first land on the page, my eye is drawn to it. And if I know I need handy social sales, that’s a great Yes, I need it. It’s action. I need it. Get or maybe even better would be a get your homemade social sales or what’s the description you would use instead of like, I need this what is the thing that they’re getting from this


Julio

Oh, you mean like in terms of like, making a pain point, a call to action, like maybe something along the lines of like, I don’t know, save time by getting social sales for only $27 or something like that.


AJ

Yeah, potentially.


Julio

Oh, I see. So even just by moving it up a hair, it should make a big difference?


AJ

Yeah. And the goal is really just to give them that visual attention. Like, I can read with those websites for free what it saw, and for me, that’s all presented there. But then I’m ready, like grab my attention and let me go.

Now, that’s not everybody. But the idea is that for people who are ready to go, you give it to them right off the bat. And then for people who need more education before they can commit to it or understand the product that’s being offered, then that’s why we reinforce that call to action across the page.


Julio

Great. Okay. So, if this was selling, I mean, this is a product it’s a digital product, but it’s still a product. So, if this but if this was physical, the same idea applies, right, like have a call to action. That’s above the fold, let them check out your collection or let them check out whatever you’re featuring as far as t-shirt designs or whatever?


AJ

Exactly. Okay, making it really clear without having to do any work. What do you want from me? Now, another trick I’ll give you this is just like a very lean approach that anyone can try. It’s called the squint test. And I don’t think I made this up, but I may have made up a name for it. If you sit back in your chair, okay, and you squint at your website, so you like squint your eyes small enough that you can’t read the words. Then you say, what’s calling my attention? What’s in my eyes notice, like, what’s the most prominent element on the page? So, let’s just see that right here. You know, what do you see in your chair as you’re looking at this page?


Julio

Okay. Can you see me by the way? I look like an idiot.


AJ

No, I also look like an idiot. Oh, good. Good, good. Good. And I’m hoping everyone at home screen


Julio

Well, I’m seeing the handmade 365 I’m not really seeing the call to action on the bottom very well. I’m seeing the picture, but I can’t really tell what the picture is trying to show me. And, if I scroll up just the tiniest bit I’m seeing this very big and bold header. Did that answer your question? Or was I did I go to surface level?


AJ

No, that’s great. That’s exactly what I was seeing. So, for being when I went when I was squinting, I could see the outline of the different interfaces, so I can see the computer mobile and tablet, right? Um, I couldn’t make out what it was, but that’s what I would have looked at first based on the squint test, it drew my eye What did not draw my eye Just to really doubling down Today on our hypotheses around the call to action, so I did not see the button. So, there are probably, you know, a hundred tactics to draw your attention to something I mentioned one as you scrolled. Which was it, if you want to show this again, it’s like, as you’re scrolling up and down the screen, there’s a little visual on that button? I think when you go to


Julio

Oh, I’m sorry, right? There you go kind of pops up.


AJ

Yeah, there’s like a little pop-up. So that’s great, because that draws your attention. And like, if you were squint testing from the very top, as you scroll, you would probably see that motion, right. But potentially, another thing you could consider is instead of having the outline button, because it’s competing with the outline of the laptop and the mobile device above it, sure, if you fill that in, if you imagine that we’re a solid, red rectangle it might do better.


Julio

I mean, the color certainly draws my eye especially with it being against the dark blue backdrop in the white lettering. Really, like that would be the only thing that would catch my eye like I see. Yeah, of course, there’s like the bold were right in the top versus handmade 365 social sales. But I don’t really, I see the numbers, but it’s hard to see what they’re actually saying. That kind of all blends in because it’s all just white. And the only you were like literally trying to make it so you can’t read it.


AJ

Right! I also had the numbers jump out and the red button was even brighter. So, what’s great about that is you want people to read these 123. So, if it’s the squint trick, if the squint test holds the you No people are going to look at one first and then read these three sections, which is great. And then even more importantly, the call to action is in focus when you’re out of focus, right. So, you know, this is a quick example of some of the ways you might find some ways to just visually improve your site so that you’re always helping them always helping your visitor, focus on the things that you want them to do.

So that they know once this, they decided this is the thing for them. They don’t have to do any work. we’re presenting it to them in simple language, we’re presenting it to them with a simple and easy button to reach. And visually, they don’t have to do the homework of kind of scanning the things that draw their attention, but instead, they just hope this is what they want me to do. And I’m ready. Let’s do it.


Julio

Okay. Yeah. I love that. I think that’s a fantastic tip. I’ve never heard that personally. So, for all I know, you’re the genius that made it.


AJ

It’s the age Ah, oh, yeah. AJ squint test. There you go. So, I think that’s it. I think that’s a good walkthrough of what you’re saying. You know, I think at the end of the day in your work, we can stop sharing now, you know, at the end of the day, you’ve got to know, what’s the purpose of this site? What we’re trying to get people to do? Is it clear and easy to find those things, right? And then take a look at the data, talk to your customers, those two steps are just going to, like push you way above, just throwing ads at it. And then identify things for improvement that can come from the data or come from some of the things that we just walked through. Pretty cool. conversion rate optimization in a nutshell, right keep doing over and over.


Julio

Yeah, well, it was it’s fantastic. I love the I love your points. I appreciate the help, you know, it’s something things that I have not thought of or come across. I like that you gave websites and stuff to five-second test calm, try my UI, calm, etc. Those are all fantastic. I really think it’s something that people know very little about. I don’t think it’s something that that is really hard. harped on enough I think when people hear about testing it’s purely a from like a maybe like an ad standpoint.

It shows like yeah, test different ads, see which ad is best. And even then, like they don’t really tell you to break it down this just generally tests different ads, right? They’re not saying like, first test the creative test three different types of ads and see what creative works best, then choose that one now let’s test the headlines and etc.

You know, they’re just so it becomes a cluster with a lot of noise and you don’t really know what’s working, and you don’t have the ability to attribute certain things and understand why it’s working. You’re just kind of eventually making this puzzle piece that you that people are clicking on and you’re just like, okay, now I’m not going to touch it. I’m going to leave it alone. And hopefully, this makes me money.


AJ

Right? I think it comes down to like a personal philosophy of mine, which is just, we can you can give people a list of what’s all day. Sure. You can have 500 things means that you’re supposed to be doing for your business for your website for your ads for, for all the things that you have going on. But if you don’t know why it’s really hard to prioritize.

So, when you’re testing ads, you’ve got to know, like, what am I trying to learn? Like, why am I doing a test in my ads to begin with, right? And what, how will I know if it works? On the website? Like, what’s the purpose of the site? What am I really trying to get people to do? And then how do I know? Is it really doing it? Yeah. And then that’s really like, all the things that we talked about today.


Julio

I’m going to go right into asking you about a certain case study, like an example of something you’ve done that really made a solid change, I guess.


AJ

Yeah. And so, we work with a number of different businesses. We primarily work with e-commerce companies, and what we generally will find is that the amount that they invest with us they get at least 10 x back. Yeah. says that we do. And the reason this works is because We’re doing the user research and data collection upfront so that our ideas better and like more leveled up, we’re not just guessing.

We’re not just trying best practices, but we’re doing things that really work for their customers. And then so we get a couple of swings at the bat, we get a couple of winners in there. And then that keeps the program rolling. So, we start to see what works, what customers respond to. And so, what we actually see is that over time, we can increase the return on investment. Right? So, we have a customer this year, who’s seeing north of 50 times what they’re spending with us on the return on investment so far.

So sometimes it’s low hanging fruit, and we can just bubble it all up and say, let’s test this and make sure it really works. And then other times it takes a little bit more work to understand what’s really working for the customer. So, at the end of the day, what’s really cool about what we do is it’s iterative and adaptive. So, we’re not just picking a strategy and sticking with it. We are using this approach so that we’re always asking why did this work? Hmm, what more? What else can we do?


Julio

That’s, that’s amazing. And I think for people who are listening to this and wanting to check out Experiment zone calm and talk to AJ and, and do all that. Just in fairness to them, even if it hurts your bottom line, I wanted to ask you this out, right is what should they do preemptively ahead of time to make their time with you more useful to where they can start making some sort of return? Hopefully, like, you know, relatively soon versus three, four months in, because they just, you know, wrote you a blank check and said, I don’t want to work on this at all you, do you?


AJ

Yeah, you do it? Yeah, I think you know, the best thing that businesses can do is to have a good handle on their analytics, and then to put together anything they’ve already heard from customers. So it can be really formal, like a usability study, like we talked about or Even with snippets of things that they’ve heard from customers who call into their customer service center, sure, who fill out their form on their website who just like a friend or family member who mentioned something, all that stuff can add up to a pool of qualitative insights that might help us better understand like, what are some of the opportunities there? Sure, we’d love to do that work, we’ll always do that work. But in order to even just level up the beginning place for working with us having that all together, and having a good sense of that is a is really useful.


Julio

So, if I’m understanding correctly, you should. A you should be a company that’s already kind of generally up and running, even if it’s not necessarily optimized. Like maybe your services aren’t quite for pure, pure beginners who like hey, I just uploaded my Shopify website three days ago. Can you help me? And then the other point to that, I’m sorry to interrupt you. Just really quick, was do you think like having a very strong idea of your avatar is a good thing or do you think that actually hurts you? Because I kind of can see how some people are so adamant about No, this is who my person is that even though you’re showing them like, it’s actually not, they defy you?


AJ

Hmm, that’s a really interesting question. Um, so for your first part about the newbies, sure they’re, they’re sad, definitely some things that you can do, like we went over today that you don’t need our help for, right? Like you can sit in your chair and do the squint test, you can get your five-second test. We’re happy to help with that stuff. But for especially for new businesses, what a great tool just to level up your site without having to use a partner. From your question around like personas, your avatar, your target market, the clearer you are about what you want, and what you’re trying to sell to, the better everything’s going to be, but you also really important.

One of the core values of our team and folks that we’d like to work with are people who are okay with being wrong. Yeah. are curious and want to improve their understanding of things. So if you come into a relationship saying my avatars 100%, I’ll never change it, there’s it, you know, if I find out, there’s only one person in the world like this, that’s the only person I want to sell to, we’re probably not going to be the right partner for you. Right. But if you’re someone who says, here’s what I know about my customer so far, and you’re open to that updating, as we get more information, perfect. And if you have a general idea of what you’re selling, who might, it might who it might be a solution for, we can still help you refine it from there too.


Julio

That’s actually a really good point because I when you said that, and you specifically use the term in a relationship that made me think about actual relationships, right. There are certain people who go I will absolutely not whatever date marry whatever it is, you know, you have your preference, but like, I will not go out with somebody who isn’t, I don’t know six foot four or something, right?

But they might be theoretically anyways losing out on the opportunity of a relationship. with somebody who is maybe just six-foot, but could be like such an amazing person for them, but they just have this idea where they’re just like, absolutely not. And then from there, you know, they might have missed opportunities to grow to date to experience things in life that they no longer have available to them.


AJ

Yeah. And I almost see the opposite problem, too. They’re like, at the end of the day, I just want to date someone, right? A bunch of customers, anyone, just like I said, like, we’re not going to work with someone who doesn’t want to learn and progress and who feels like they have to be right all the time. What we do is going to undo that, we’re going to challenge you, we’re going to teach you things. We’re going to teach ourselves things we’re going to be wrong, and you have to be okay with us being wrong sometimes too.

So, I think there are two sides to the coin. There are the people that think anyone can be their customer and they’ll, they’ll adapt their website so anybody could anyone in anyone, everyone and anyone could buy from them. Versus like somebody who’s like, Hey, I specifically and helping people who are looking to escape a hurricane today. Sure. And they’ve got a trampoline in their backyard and I serve it. Right. And like, you’ll know, I have that problem but if you have someone who’s like, I help with anything you ever need sure if you’re like, maybe I’ll think of you, but I won’t. I won’t remember you.


Julio

Yeah, totally. I think that there’s a difference between a maybe like, some jack of all trades that you find on you know, some random website versus an actual construction company that specializes in marble flooring or something like you have to have some sort of specialty and some sort of customer base in mind and what you do and, and, you know, anyways, yeah, I totally understand. I totally agree. So basically, have an avatar, but be okay with being wrong about your avatar?


AJ

Sorta, it’s like you can have an avatar but let it update with time. Right like this, there’s a real person. Sure, somewhere out there, there are many real people out there when you’re trying to talk to. And as you have real conversations, and they shift from being like a, an internet visitor or a number, right being a customer, I would hope that you’d get a better understanding of them, just like the analogy with dating, right? Like, yeah, you’ve got your checklist of things in your dating profile, but then you actually go and meet them. And suddenly you’re starting to understand other things that matter to this person or other things matter to you. So that’s how I would approach it. It’s just you know; you have an idea of who you want to talk to first and then we’ll have the conversation so much easier to understand who they really are.


Julio

Pretty cool. Okay, how can people find you How can they work with you? Yeah, why don’t you tell us that?


AJ

Yeah. So, we’re located at experimentzone.com and what we are giving away right now and is great for anybody who’s looking for some feedback similar to what we did today. is a one-hour free console. So, you get a chance to sit with myself or someone else on the team, we’ll look at your website, we’ll talk about your analytics and any customer data you have. Then we’ll give you actionable things you can do. And if at the end of that we think it’s a good relationship, then we can continue the conversation. The way that we work with customers is that we either do conversion deep-dives if they’re a business that’s not quite at the right scale for a be testing yet they’re getting there. But they want someone to help with the analytics and customer interviews and research. And then for businesses that have about 50,000 visitors or more than we do conversion strategies and have that partnership where we’re helping define what tests to run, where to run them, and to know that things are working or not.


Julio

Awesome! Well, AJ, I really appreciate it. I’m super excited. By the way, guys, we’re actually going to be hosting a class with AJ, in late August.

I’ll update the actual dates and all that. So just look out for that though. updating our Instagram and in our email list and all that, where she’s going to actually, we’re going to talk more about this. She’s going to take a lucky participant and kind of do what she did with us and kind of walk them through.

If you want to be that lucky participant, just make sure you check us out and look out for that. But AJ, again, I really appreciate it. I appreciate your help, and I appreciate you being on the podcast. I think everybody got a lot of insight.

So, everyone, that is it, and we’ll talk to you later!

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